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BRANGLE FAMILY ROOM - 49
The concept of "defunding" the police and the increase of weapons sales
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
Fake The Disco!
Police are unquestionably over-funded and the right to bear arms should be one of the few unassailable rights
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
This myth that police systematically oppress the black community is one of, if not, the single most destructive force in our society. I'm not aware of any facts / data collected on crime, arrests, or police interactions that support any basis for this belief. I can go into research/thesis mode and round up all the data points I've looked at if challenged, but for now I'll just recount the numbers that I've heard to the best of my ability. I believe the FBI reported these stats:
In 2019, 9 black unarmed black people were shot by the police (there was probably a national outrage over all or most of them, and you probably know many of their names). In the same year, 19 unarmed white people were shot by police, I doubt you have ever heard even one of their names. There are other situations in which someone can be killed by police other than being shot (i.e. George Floyd) but I would be very surprised if it changes the overall trend very much (i.e. for every George Floyd there is probably a Tony Timpa...white guy who died pretty much the same way yet you likely never heard of him) You may think it makes sense to adjust for population size, but it really doesn't, arrest rate, or violent arrest rate is the proper metric as blacks are involved in police encounters at a much higher rate (if you don't understand why this is the case, some research into violent crime statistics will go a long way into explaining it).
Evidence has also shown that a) On a "per encounter" basis, blacks and whites are about equally likely to be killed in an encounter with the police b) Black officers are more likely than white officers to use deadly force against a minority/person of color. If the protestors are tackling police reform in general, that's a reasonable goal, but again, this idea that their is an epicdemic of police killing black people for racist reasons is absurdity. The data strongly refutes this concept, this post is just an on the fly expression of this, because this really needs to be understood, if reinforcement/clarification of some of these points is needed, I'm happy to do so, but this wasn't meant to serve as some thesis paper on the matter.
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu
In 2019, 9 black unarmed black people were shot by the police (there was probably a national outrage over all or most of them, and you probably know many of their names). In the same year, 19 unarmed white people were shot by police, I doubt you have ever heard even one of their names. There are other situations in which someone can be killed by police other than being shot (i.e. George Floyd) but I would be very surprised if it changes the overall trend very much (i.e. for every George Floyd there is probably a Tony Timpa...white guy who died pretty much the same way yet you likely never heard of him) You may think it makes sense to adjust for population size, but it really doesn't, arrest rate, or violent arrest rate is the proper metric as blacks are involved in police encounters at a much higher rate (if you don't understand why this is the case, some research into violent crime statistics will go a long way into explaining it).
Evidence has also shown that a) On a "per encounter" basis, blacks and whites are about equally likely to be killed in an encounter with the police b) Black officers are more likely than white officers to use deadly force against a minority/person of color. If the protestors are tackling police reform in general, that's a reasonable goal, but again, this idea that their is an epicdemic of police killing black people for racist reasons is absurdity. The data strongly refutes this concept, this post is just an on the fly expression of this, because this really needs to be understood, if reinforcement/clarification of some of these points is needed, I'm happy to do so, but this wasn't meant to serve as some thesis paper on the matter.
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu
Yeah I don't view the police as this racist oppressive monolith that I know quite a few people do. But I think we'd be better off re-allocating some of the police budget, not necessarily a huge percentage, but then again, even something like 7% would amount to likely billions nationwide; into things like education and mental health.
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
The phrase All Lives Matter, is important and one I have used often. However, I am not closed mind, and do understand why Black Lives Matter is more important right now.
I will not budge on the fact that I do not believe the American Flag should be a sign of protest. I heard it said that it might be better to stop playing the National Anthem at sporting events, I am okay with that. Let a protest come another way. I walk through a National Cemetery often, mostly because my wife is buried in one, and look at all the headstones. Many folks served and died to keep that flag flying, I will never dishonor them or the flag that I served under. This is not a debatable item in my world.
George Floyd, I am truly sorry about how he died, no one should die by being choked to death. If it was done to subdue him for a few seconds while cuffs were put on him, maybe ok. He was on drugs, he may have been a bit unruly, but there were 4 officers there, seems like they should have been able to hold him down some other way. In any case, he was not a good person as his brother said. He spent many years in prison for drug use and other crimes. His last major crime, he put a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach, so his partners could ransack the house to find money and drugs. They only found money. They were captured shortly after they left, because a neighbor saw it go down and wrote their license number down and called 911. He spent 5 years in prison for this. Point is, not the best person to put on a statue or rename a street for.
I am against dismantling the police departments, mostly because I would rather depend on them, than an armed neighbor. Some functions should go away from them, which could mean some defunding, but remember that the population is higher than it was 50 years ago; that means more police, fire, etc. are needed. But I barely have enough for me to live on in retirement, so raising taxes is not really a good option as far as I am concerned. There are programs that could be eliminated, but most programs are favorites of others, so I shall let the problem rest for now.
Finally, the statues. I concur with the comment that they should be in museums or on National Battlegrounds, not in public places. I have been to Gettysburg, and the statues represent who was where, and who did what. It tells a story, does not stand for slavery or other wrongful reasons.
When you Love someone, Love them with all your heart as you never know what can happen today!
I will not budge on the fact that I do not believe the American Flag should be a sign of protest. I heard it said that it might be better to stop playing the National Anthem at sporting events, I am okay with that. Let a protest come another way. I walk through a National Cemetery often, mostly because my wife is buried in one, and look at all the headstones. Many folks served and died to keep that flag flying, I will never dishonor them or the flag that I served under. This is not a debatable item in my world.
George Floyd, I am truly sorry about how he died, no one should die by being choked to death. If it was done to subdue him for a few seconds while cuffs were put on him, maybe ok. He was on drugs, he may have been a bit unruly, but there were 4 officers there, seems like they should have been able to hold him down some other way. In any case, he was not a good person as his brother said. He spent many years in prison for drug use and other crimes. His last major crime, he put a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach, so his partners could ransack the house to find money and drugs. They only found money. They were captured shortly after they left, because a neighbor saw it go down and wrote their license number down and called 911. He spent 5 years in prison for this. Point is, not the best person to put on a statue or rename a street for.
I am against dismantling the police departments, mostly because I would rather depend on them, than an armed neighbor. Some functions should go away from them, which could mean some defunding, but remember that the population is higher than it was 50 years ago; that means more police, fire, etc. are needed. But I barely have enough for me to live on in retirement, so raising taxes is not really a good option as far as I am concerned. There are programs that could be eliminated, but most programs are favorites of others, so I shall let the problem rest for now.
Finally, the statues. I concur with the comment that they should be in museums or on National Battlegrounds, not in public places. I have been to Gettysburg, and the statues represent who was where, and who did what. It tells a story, does not stand for slavery or other wrongful reasons.
When you Love someone, Love them with all your heart as you never know what can happen today!
RG, you've hit the nail on the head in just about every paragraph.
I person don't see what is gained by kneeling for the flag, but it well within anyone's rights to, so I don't really have any issue with it. As per our national anthem, it is weird how we play the national anthem just about everywhere. In Europe, they really only play their anthems during international matches, ie England vs Germany. Events where it's really one country hosting another. It is so perplexing as to why we need the anthem before a game between Denver and Miami. Same country, and a lot of players may not be American, especially in NHL or MLB.
Floyd is being martyred for what occurred to him. He wasn't a good person, and it is relevant, but it is justifiably being overshadowed by the gruesome manner of his demise.
And of course, the statues should be in museums. There shouldn't be a place for a confederate flag anywhere in America. The confederates were racist, treasonous, losers; and their country lasted for about four years. To support a losing army just seems so fundamentally un-American to me. It would be mind-boggling to see Benedict Arnold statues, so I can't get behind a Jefferson Davis one for similar reasons.
If you really wanna show "southern pride", then just fly your state flag.
---This message was edited on 08:10PM Jun 14, 2020---
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
I person don't see what is gained by kneeling for the flag, but it well within anyone's rights to, so I don't really have any issue with it. As per our national anthem, it is weird how we play the national anthem just about everywhere. In Europe, they really only play their anthems during international matches, ie England vs Germany. Events where it's really one country hosting another. It is so perplexing as to why we need the anthem before a game between Denver and Miami. Same country, and a lot of players may not be American, especially in NHL or MLB.
Floyd is being martyred for what occurred to him. He wasn't a good person, and it is relevant, but it is justifiably being overshadowed by the gruesome manner of his demise.
And of course, the statues should be in museums. There shouldn't be a place for a confederate flag anywhere in America. The confederates were racist, treasonous, losers; and their country lasted for about four years. To support a losing army just seems so fundamentally un-American to me. It would be mind-boggling to see Benedict Arnold statues, so I can't get behind a Jefferson Davis one for similar reasons.
If you really wanna show "southern pride", then just fly your state flag.
---This message was edited on 08:10PM Jun 14, 2020---
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
Change of topic, but I need to rant about something unimportant.
If you're about to lose in chess, don't offer a draw. Concede. Or play it out and hope you can get into a stalemate. But king vs king+queen is not a draw situation.
---This message was edited on 05:15PM Jun 17, 2020---
If you're about to lose in chess, don't offer a draw. Concede. Or play it out and hope you can get into a stalemate. But king vs king+queen is not a draw situation.
---This message was edited on 05:15PM Jun 17, 2020---
Personally, I feel the police should be given MORE - more money, more support...
They often deal with the scum of the earth, they are spat on, sworn at, have things thrown at them... they work long hours in all weather - to be there when you call up about an accident or intruder - we expect them to just be there when required.
All they do is uphold the law. If they say STOP... you should STOP. If you resist arrest they have to chase you and apprehend you. It may involve violence from both sides. In a split moment it can go either way.
They are somebody's husband, wife, son, daughter, uncle etc etc...they are human. They have problems paying bills, relationships... they have to support their own family emotionally, physically, financially...
No wonder they break.
I feel sorry for police. They are doing a job. A dangerous job.
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
They often deal with the scum of the earth, they are spat on, sworn at, have things thrown at them... they work long hours in all weather - to be there when you call up about an accident or intruder - we expect them to just be there when required.
All they do is uphold the law. If they say STOP... you should STOP. If you resist arrest they have to chase you and apprehend you. It may involve violence from both sides. In a split moment it can go either way.
They are somebody's husband, wife, son, daughter, uncle etc etc...they are human. They have problems paying bills, relationships... they have to support their own family emotionally, physically, financially...
No wonder they break.
I feel sorry for police. They are doing a job. A dangerous job.
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
Change of topic, but I need to rant about something unimportant.
If you're about to lose in chess, don't offer a draw. Concede. Or play it out and hope you can get into a stalemate. But king vs king+queen is not a draw situation.
Live chess has some of the most pathetic sportsmanship you could imagine. I could go on and on and list the ridiculous behaviors if I was in a different frame of mind, but yeah the people who play out these hopeless situations are amusing. It's one thing to play this way in blitz, when the opponent has like 30 seconds left and their is an outside shot of flagging them (even this is kind of pathetic in my view, what would that even prove) but in classic or correspondance chess, it really is just indescribably sad when a 1800 player shuffles their king back and forth for some unknowable reason against a hilarious material deficit.
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu
Curious to see what my fellow Brainglers think of the statues situations worldwide
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
Celtichero, I have mixed emotions. Confederate officers in uniform, yes, take them down. X-confederate personal that did something outside the Civil war, I may be okay with it. I see some pictures are being taken down in the Senate building, I guess I better research this before really commenting. Sorry, been busy with construction for several weeks now, only watch a little news at night.
People of history who may have had slaves, I really am not sure how much I would condemn them. To condemn people TODAY for things they did when it seemed to be the norm in the past, is the issue. There were NO civil rights before the mid 1900's. This does not mean it was the right thing, it was a different time. And we're talking about statues of people from the revolution war. They made this country America and not a British outpost. We really can not image what they went through to make us the USA. Their actions would not be welcomed today, but we have grown wiser. Is it really fair to condemn the incorrect thinking of 200-300 years ago ? The earth was flat and no one would ever walk on the moon.
When you Love someone, Love them with all your heart as you never know what can happen today!
People of history who may have had slaves, I really am not sure how much I would condemn them. To condemn people TODAY for things they did when it seemed to be the norm in the past, is the issue. There were NO civil rights before the mid 1900's. This does not mean it was the right thing, it was a different time. And we're talking about statues of people from the revolution war. They made this country America and not a British outpost. We really can not image what they went through to make us the USA. Their actions would not be welcomed today, but we have grown wiser. Is it really fair to condemn the incorrect thinking of 200-300 years ago ? The earth was flat and no one would ever walk on the moon.
When you Love someone, Love them with all your heart as you never know what can happen today!
Yup RGW4 said:
I think keep the statues, monuments, pictures...doesn't make the actions right. Makes us remember not to repeat that. Our children are not learning anything about history - they are told what they are allowed to think. Half of them have no concept of geography. And that is just the beginning.
Go read '1984' or 'Fahrenheit 451' and that is the world we are heading towards....
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
Their actions would not be welcomed today, but we have grown wiser. Is it really fair to condemn the incorrect thinking of 200-300 years ago ? The earth was flat and no one would ever walk on the moon.
I think keep the statues, monuments, pictures...doesn't make the actions right. Makes us remember not to repeat that. Our children are not learning anything about history - they are told what they are allowed to think. Half of them have no concept of geography. And that is just the beginning.
Go read '1984' or 'Fahrenheit 451' and that is the world we are heading towards....
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
I don't really think it's fair to compare taking down the statues of treasonous racists to the repression of knowledge in 1984 and Fahrenheit 451.
Just waiting on our British friends to get down to business and bring down the Oliver Cromwell statue.
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
Just waiting on our British friends to get down to business and bring down the Oliver Cromwell statue.
"I need to be myself. I can't be no one else." - Noel Gallagher
Here in San Francisco area, they've taken down a Columbus statue. It gets graffitied a lot, so it's already been unpopular. But it's not like he had anything to do with San Francisco directly... just as a forerunner of exploration. So that doesn't bother me.
I think we just need to define the limits. How much of a person's negative history outweighs the good things they did?
I think we just need to define the limits. How much of a person's negative history outweighs the good things they did?
There is an empty plinth in a park in the place where I live. A statue of the city's founder was removed a few years ago. It does not bother me at all.
It would not bother me if all statues were taken down.
I would rather have peace than a statue.
It would not bother me if all statues were taken down.
I would rather have peace than a statue.
Mmm...quite a few thoughts...
whovianddeb said
I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on, surely?
Just look at the near past...what did Obama do? Doesn't that depend on your opinion?
Trump? Everyone is against him, but he was voted in? You can argue about HOW he was voted in, but he was voted in nevertheless.
There are more than 40 wars going on in the world just TODAY. There is never any peace.
I'd keep all the statues no matter how 'good' or 'bad' just to keep in mind what our predecessors went through to get to here. There is time for a change but it needs to be thought out. At the moment it is pure anarchy and destruction. Surely this is a similar behaviour of what they are complaining about? Being pushed and shoved around?
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. [Santayana]
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
whovianddeb said
How much of a person's negative history outweighs the good things they did?
I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on, surely?
Just look at the near past...what did Obama do? Doesn't that depend on your opinion?
Trump? Everyone is against him, but he was voted in? You can argue about HOW he was voted in, but he was voted in nevertheless.
There are more than 40 wars going on in the world just TODAY. There is never any peace.
I'd keep all the statues no matter how 'good' or 'bad' just to keep in mind what our predecessors went through to get to here. There is time for a change but it needs to be thought out. At the moment it is pure anarchy and destruction. Surely this is a similar behaviour of what they are complaining about? Being pushed and shoved around?
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. [Santayana]
Snappy Snappy Snap..Snap Snap Snap Snap!
Edit: Never mind. I don't want to turn this into a debate.
---This message was edited on 06:00AM Jul 2, 2020---
---This message was edited on 06:00AM Jul 2, 2020---
Statues are just stone representations. We can learn from primary sources, biographies, stories, film, etc., all of which are more informative than a statue.
Hate to tell you this Celt, but if you were your age or so in Mississippi in 1862, you would have very likely been a 'treasonous racist'. It wasn't as if the Northerners generally weren't at that time as well any way. Without a little bit of luck in 1776, I suppose we would be viewing Washington etc as 'treasonous losers' as well. Do you think any of these guys would be pro-slavery if they were born/alive today? That being said, I don't particularly care about the Confederate "heritage", and I don't get really worked up one way or the other about whether some statues should come down, but I do have a significant problem with mobs taking it upon themselves to take them down. If the town votes or whatever, so be it, although it is clear the goal of the mobs is hardly limited to the measured removal of the worst offending statues, but en masse destruction for the sake of destruction. They have taken down multiple statues dedicated to abolitionists. In a funny story they even defaced a statue of the guy who wrote Don Qioxote (the guy who kept fighting windmills so he could imagine himself a chivalrous night fighting real monsters) . History has generally been awful, but if these people want to combat slavery, instead of bringing down statues tangentially related to it, they could have a go at the millions enslaved worldwide TODAY.
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can - Sun Tzu
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